EPISODE DESCRIPTION:

Is your child struggling with constipation, rashes, recurring infections, anxiety, meltdowns, or behavioral changes that don’t feel “normal”?

In this episode of The Health Revival Show, Liz and Becca sit down with pediatric functional practitioner Andrea Jones to unpack the gut-brain-immune connection in children.

We discuss:

- PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorder Associated with Strep)

- The link between gut inflammation and behavior

- Chronic ear infections, reflux, eczema, and constipation as “soft signs”

- Why MiraLAX doesn’t solve the root cause

- Nervous system dysregulation in kids

- How parents can support their child without burning out

If you’ve been told “it’s just a phase” but your gut says otherwise — this episode is for you.

Connect with Andrea: Instagram

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produced by: 📣 brandhard

Transcript:

Liz Roman: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Health Revival Show. Today we have one of our very own practitioners, Ms. Andrea Jones, and we are excited. Today we are gonna dive into caring for children with complex medical issues and mostly. Discuss how parents need to be taking care of themselves. And just a reminder to parents out there that, A, you're doing a great job and B, you matter too, this process.

And Andrea has a lot of experience with us, so I'm excited for her to join us today. Welcome, Andrea, to the show. Thank. 

Andrea Jones: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. 

Liz Roman: Amazing. So tell our audience a little bit about you, your history, you've. Done so much in terms of coming from conventional medicine and years of pediatrics to functional, and then also just your personal journey and your personal journey with your kiddos as well.

Andrea Jones: Absolutely. Well, you know, it's, I don't feel like it's a very exciting story, but when I tell it, I guess it is a little bit, you know, exciting to other people, so I'm happy [00:01:00] to share. So my background, I got my Bachelor's of Science in nursing in 2004, 2007, sorry. I started school in 2004 and knew when I went into nursing school that I wanted to specialize in pediatrics, um, which really was not.

Recommended at the time to like launch your career in a specialty. Like they really wanted you to generalize in med surg. And I was like, I've known since I was five that I wanted to work with kids. Like it was either nursing or become a psychologist, you know, and um, and so went into conventional medicine, absolutely loved my career there.

I'm so thankful for my years that I, you know, I got to train with some of the best of the best in pediatric medicine and still have really good connections, um, in that community. Um, but really through my own health challenges. And I think, you know, we all, all of us practitioners have a story that's similar.

Like, we went through our own health [00:02:00] challenges, my own health crisis. That was an undiagnosed TBI, um, that did not show itself until I was postpartum with my firstborn. And my doctor was basically like, well, we can put you on anxiety meds. Your labs are normal, which they weren't. Um, but you know, according to them, I was totally fine.

Um, you know, in spite of the fact that I had lost 10 pounds in a week, I'd lost my milk supply. I was throwing up every day, like I was extremely sick. And, um, I finally was like, I went to the quacks, right? A naturopath. And I, I say that because that is how they were talked about in our conventional.

Community. Right. Um, that's quack medicine. And so, but I was desperate. I'm like, I can't, I have to be able to feed my baby. Like there was something so. Instinctual that drove me to work with somebody different. And that really that one appointment, um, I, he literally pulled out a PowerPoint and like walked me through my [00:03:00] life and was like, this is where everything started for you and this is why you're here in my office today.

And I just started crying because it was like the first time I felt like somebody had actually put all of the pieces together for me. And that's really what opened my eyes to holistic medicine. And I felt like somebody had just dangled this nice juicy carrot in front of my face and was like, Hey, like there's so much more for you than what we're seeing in the hospital.

And I, again, I loved my career, but I did feel like there was something missing and it drove me down this road of researching and looking into things and taking care of my children differently. And so, you know, we started, um, really doing a more like holistic approach in raising, you know, at that time I just had one kid, but it was, you know, we went to from totally processed foods to organic foods and you know, as much as we could afford at the time.

Um, really just taking little baby steps in, [00:04:00] providing that healthy, you know, healthier kind of foundation. Getting her on some good probiotics and really good nutrition. Um, and so that was kind of the foundation that I didn't know would eventually lead me out of my career in working in the hospital. Um.

I started to become very dissatisfied with what I was able to provide at the bedside for patients. I knew a lot more than what, again, what I was able to present. And so, and even then, what I was legally allowed to say without there being some pretty significant, um. Personal and professional ramifications.

I'll just leave it at that. Um, there was a lot of backlash that would happen if you were to, to discuss anything that was not, um, yeah. Kind of within their box. I'll just, I'll put it that way. And that started to really rub me the wrong way. Ethically, I felt like I was withholding. From people, um, really essential [00:05:00] information that they need.

You know, kids that come in with chronic infections, why is nobody talking about your immune system? You know? Um, and so I would send them with stuff like, Hey, make sure to talk to your pediatrician about this, this, and the other thing. And I knew that it would go nowhere because their pediatricians don't know about this, that, and the other thing.

They know what we're providing in the hospital. And so that was really the catalyst that eventually gave me the courage to leave. My career. Um, and I will say, you know, when we talk about like the parenting side of things to a certain extent, having some of that, um, nursing experience did help me in navigating the complex medical world that I would eventually have to step into for my child with her complex medical diagnosis.

Um. It doesn't make, it didn't make it easier necessarily, but it did help me to kind of have a little bit of an edge in terms of how to advocate for myself. Um, and there's so much that I would go [00:06:00] back to myself and say in that season and do very, very differently in terms of taking care of myself. So I'm really glad that we're.

Talking about that because hopefully my hindsight can be, you know, some of the parents' foresight in really protecting their own nervous system, um, and making sure that they're thinking about themselves in this process too. 

Liz Roman: And I would just say that as we go through this, it doesn't have to be, let's say, a complex medical issue.

This could really be the parent that is, you know, having their first child. They're trying to navigate behavioral issues. Is this normal, is it not? I know that I went through that even with Marcus, uh, for a short period of time when I was pregnant, expecting Ethan, and thank God for one of my clients at the time, who was a therapist.

She's like, you know what, I'm gonna send you this document about this. Season of his life and developmentally what's going on and what behaviors are associated with this so that I could understand and his teacher could understand, right. Instead of having conversations of like, is something wrong, do we need further [00:07:00] evaluation?

Right. It was a phase combined with the fact, you know, expecting a brother and he's now five years old and lived his whole life, right. Only child. So just for the person and the parents listening to this, know that she's gonna speak to and cover, all right? Yes. Whether your child is in a hospital setting right now and you're going through treatment, or this is at home and you feel like you are on an island because you don't know what's normal, what's not, who to reach out to, where to turn, so.

Keep listening and stay tuned. Uh, share this with a parent because this is going to be helpful, I think, for any of us. I'm sure Becca and I, every time we talk to you, Andrea, we learn something new. So yeah, I'm excited. 

Becca Chillcz: Yeah, no, I'm very excited and I, I don't, this is probably a hard thing to even quantify or give like a list of, these are the things to watch for that are normal versus not normal.

Um, and like Liz was talking about, you know, the, the behavioral. Phases that kids go through. And I actually, I, I thought it was really interesting. I was speaking [00:08:00] with another, um, child development expert yesterday. She works a little bit differently, uh, in terms of that realm, but she was talking about how unfortunately right now the exposure to the outside world is just so different than it used to be.

Um, for kids growing up. And until kids are about like eight or 10, they're still very dependent on you. Like they, they need you for. Can you, you know, help me with this. Can you fill this up? Can you answer this question? Whatever it might be. And middle school age is when it seems to turn into like half and half.

Like they're, they're starting to figure out the outside world's, you know, uh, influence on them. And then apparently in high school, according to her, she's like, it's completely the outside world. Like they no longer. Ultimately want to be with you, uh, in terms of dependency, which is just so sad and, and I think comes back to the parent and how we're approaching it, you know, raising our kids.

But, um, in those early years, there's so much that kids are being exposed to. And I think something that I look back on now that I didn't realize, and [00:09:00] I'd, I'd love your thought on this too. So my son. Carson grew up, he definitely was more of the constipated side. He dealt with croup multiple times. Mm-hmm.

Um, he ended up in the hospital a couple of times. He probably had croup a total of five times, um, before the age of four or five. And so on top of that, like. His, I'm sure his nervous system and his immune system were just so heightened. 'cause he was totally my kid that got sick more. He was, he would catch everything and it was the COVID timeframe.

There was a lot of, he was a 3-year-old, 2-year-old wearing a mask in daycare just. Came home soaking wet from his slot, like his slot. Oh no. 

Speaker 4: He such a, 

Becca Chillcz: I look back at these pictures, we had to put bandana on him because he would, oh my gosh. That like, it would just saturate his clothes. Um, looking back, like I know it's because he's a mouth breather, he 100%, like he would just keep his mouth open.

And I'm currently working on getting in contact with the tooth pillow, another story. But [00:10:00] he went through a phase where he was unable to be around loud noises. Um. It was to the point where he would completely lose it at school if he saw the maintenance guy with like the drill. Yeah. Um, we couldn't get out of the car when there was a lawnmower outside.

Yeah. Um, we had to send him to school with like headphones because it was such a sensory thing for him. Yeah. And fortunately, he, I don't wanna say like outgrew it, but he. Got past it at some point. Mm-hmm. We did take him to therapy for a little bit to kind of have like this exposure therapy. Um, but part of me looks back on it now and I'm like, was this just a immune and nervous system overload to where like those extra things just couldn't, and most kids don't like loud noises obviously, but like his situation was a little bit beyond that.

Yeah. 

Speaker 4: Right. 

Becca Chillcz: And so I'm curious your thoughts on those scenarios where like. Do. Is it just this [00:11:00] cascade of there's too much, or is there something else you find in those scenarios going on? 

Andrea Jones: I think you're absolutely right. I think it's a combination of things. Um, I do think that it is a, you know, if you think about our babies being born with a bucket, right?

And that, that bucket is our mitochondria, our genetics, our. Toxic overload, our nervous system, which I think back to like what my pregnancies were like, and there was stuff happening in my life that I couldn't control, um, that was extremely stressful on top of my own health issues that had not been dealt with or addressed at the time.

And so I'm like, oh, if I could go back and give you like one thing, it would've been a better pregnancy, right? Because that would've changed. I think a lot of things in terms of. Of how our children's immune systems and their nervous systems come into the world, right? So there's, there's that aspect of thing, and that's not a shaming statement at all.

Like we're all doing the best that we [00:12:00] can. But I think then we have to look at the external exposures, the environment that our children are in, both in the home and outside of the home that sometimes is not. Nervous system regulating. Right? And so if you have this kid that maybe has a dysregulated immune system, more li more likely, a lot of the research is coming out to show that their nervous system is also likely to be dysregulated because of that.

Which we know, 'cause we see that in our practice all the time. Uh, it's not different for kids. It just manifests a little bit differently. And I think. That if we can start to catch the subtle, like what I would call soft signs that things are starting to kind of pile on, right. Um, things like eczema, food allergies, um, like you said, that like drooling or constantly getting sick, if I had known what to look for in terms of.

An airway breather. I would've, I would've [00:13:00] recognized that in both of my kids very early on. But I didn't, I'm not a mouth breather. I don't sleep with my mouth open. And so I didn't, I didn't know any of that stuff. Right. But I think if we can start to catch those early signs, um, like you, you, for your kid, that noise sensitivity, um, I kind of like to use the parameter when it comes to behavior, when it starts to become.

Generalized to multiple environments. So it's not just like one thing that happens occasionally. It happens a lot of the time in multiple different environments and it doesn't match their developmental age. Like we shouldn't see meltdowns that last for 45 minutes in a 7-year-old. That would not be developmentally appropriate.

I'm not saying that there's, um. That's like a parenting issue or anything like that. I'm just saying that's one of the ways that we can tell. The problem with this though, is that, um, pediatricians, and actually I can't remember [00:14:00] which organization it was, it might be the a PA that um. That changed the milestones, so they've moved the milestones farther out.

So we're actually not catching these things as soon as we normally would like walking, crawling, babbling. That really actually does tell us how their nervous system is developing. I don't, I don't know if that answered the question. Sorry, 

Liz Roman: COVID, 

Andrea Jones: what was that? 

Liz Roman: Do you know when they changed that? Did they change that during COVID or shortly after COVID.

Andrea Jones: It was shortly after COVID, I can't remember the exact date. I, I feel like it was 2021. Um, and I remember seeing that and sending it to like a peds OT friend of mine and, and, and I was like, uh, what do we think about this? Like collectively, what do we think about this? Because this to me, is a huge problem, um, because we're already not catching kids soon enough.

Like half half of the kids that you know are getting diagnosed with an actual diagnoses like anxiety, A DHD, autism. [00:15:00] Aren't getting caught until like, uh, high school, junior high, and we can be doing so much more to help support them physiologically, neurologically, when we start to really pay attention to those, what I would call soft signs, right?

Um, that something's off. And, and I know looking back, even in my own story, just looking at it from a health perspective, if I had known what the soft signs were. I would've taken them a lot more seriously. Right? Like the soft signs that I was developing SIBO that nobody was talking to me about, right?

Like sluggish bowel movements, things like that. I would've paid a lot more attention to that. And so I think a lot of it comes down to educating parents, empowering them, and helping to kind of. Shepherd them, for lack of a better word, to the right people so that they're act, they're, they're not being gaslit anymore and they're actually being listened to and taken seriously.

Um, yeah. 

Liz Roman: Can we talk a little bit [00:16:00] about what those soft signs are? Because I can tell you in my personal experience with Marcus, going from a conventional pediatrician to a functional pediatrician, the questions and the experience were completely different. That was the first time that on any paperwork screening and conversational screening, I was ever asked.

Diet diversity, bowel movements, sleep, mood. I mean just like all of these things that she went on. We probably talked for 15, 20 minutes just about symptoms. Right. Do I have any concerns? How is it going at home? How are you doing? What are you seeing and do you feel that there's any area that we need to further investigate?

And it was not at all like a sales tactic to try to get me to do testing or anything like that. It was a very different process of, you go to the pediatrician's office for your well visit checks, AKA, let me make money off [00:17:00] injecting your child again and 

Andrea Jones: right. 

Liz Roman: Pray to God, nothing happens. Or like I went in and I said, Hey, I really wanna talk with you.

At that point in time, we were still in conventional care. He was having multiple ear infections and crazy hyper. We've been to the ER in the middle of the night, all these different things, right? And she basically says, well, this is our only option for antibiotic treatment. You need to have two or three more within the 12 month timeframe.

And I said, I'm sorry, you're going to allow this to occur two or three more times after. This is the fourth time. I said, I don't accept this. I'm going to an ENT, and that ENT looked me dead in the face and said, I'm so happy that you brought him here. We're doing tubes on Friday. And from then on nothing ever happened.

If he did ever have any issues, we had antibiotics to put directly in the ear instead of his microbiome. And so it's also just this like that mama instinct. But again, you don't know what you don't know. And I remember vividly sitting in that conventional medicine office and them going through this [00:18:00] orientation when I was pregnant, basically accepting, here's our rules and regulations.

If you're gonna be part of our practice, we don't do any type of medical or religious exemptions. You comply or you don't come here. 

Andrea Jones: Find somewhere else to go. Yeah. 

Liz Roman: Oh my gosh. Right. So can you share a little bit about that piece and then what are some of those subtle signs that parents should kind of be looking out for?

Because it's easy for us to say soft signs, but what does that look like in day to day if it's not an extreme case that be, and I have given here, right. In terms of group or these double ear infections. Yeah, 

Andrea Jones: absolutely. Yeah. So soft signs I would say are things like, um, skin rashes. Um, because that, like recurring skin rashes.

I'm not talking about like you came into contact with poison ivy and you got a rash. I'm talking about like you eat, you know, you eat food or your child is starting to be introduced to foods and they're starting to develop even light, subtle rashes. Like I remember with my youngest, she would get what I now know is a [00:19:00] histamine response where her temples would flush.

With citrus fruits. And I was like, that's so weird. Like, that is so bizarre. And I remember bringing that to the, we were working with a pediatrician at the time because our, uh, naturopath had moved like way too far away and I couldn't get to them. And they were like, oh, that's kind of weird. Like, just keep trying it.

If she breaks out in hives, let us know. I was like, what? Funny thing, I won't be doing that. Um, you know, probably not gonna wait till that point, but thanks so much. Um, and so I finally opted to do food allergy testing on her because I knew that my pregnancy with her was pretty stressful and my mom had been on hospice during the time and like, not an ideal.

Pregnancy, you know, situation. Um, and that there were likely some, you know, immune nervous system dysregulation, things happening that were contributing to that. So things like rashes, um, things like reflux. So throwing up after every feed, or you know, more than, I would say, [00:20:00] more than once a day, you know, for, um, a child under the age of one, that's something that we would wanna be looking into.

Some food sensitivities, uh, recurring ear infections, even if they're mild. Um, that to me is still another sign of, you know, immune system dysregulation. We were very lucky to have, um, an amazing pediatric chiropractor that anytime my kids would complain of ear pain, she would just adjust them, everything would drain.

And we never had to treat an ear infection that way. Um, I would also say tummy aches, abdominal pain, like even if it's intermittent. Uh, where it's like they just kind of complain randomly, but regularly that their tummy hurts. Like, eh, my tummy hurts. Um, I hear that a lot with the kids that we work with, um, where they actually don't recognize that their stomach was hurting all the time until it's not anymore.

And they're like, my tummy doesn't hurt anymore. Um, headaches not sleeping well. Your kid always being tired, [00:21:00] or they're always tired and they're always wired. Um, that we just say, oh, our kid's just busy. They're just really active. Um, if they were active, then like normal, healthy, active, then activity would resolve that.

Physical activity would resolve that. Um, those are some of the things that I look for. And then of course when we're talking about, you know, there are periods of development where emotions and mood is like a little bit more dysregulated, and we would expect that like between the ages of three to five.

Um, eight to 11, um, especially for girls. And then like 15 to 17, there's kind of like these windows of really rapid hormone shifts, um, specifically with, uh, the adrenal glands. Um, and so there are normal periods of behavioral challenges, I would say, when it starts to extend beyond that or you're looking at, like, I spend a [00:22:00] lot of my day.

Trying to get my child through the day, that's, I would say that one's a little bit more than a soft sign. That's more like we need to pay really close attention. To where this development is heading. But those are some of the things that I look for. Um, and hopefully we catch them before it's like five years entrenched in, but even the kids that we do have that have been struggling for a really long time, their bodies are so resilient.

Um, and they do respond much faster even, you know, than our adult clients that are struggling with the same things. 

Becca Chillcz: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about like what ultimately is going on in a lot of these cases. We talked about food sensitivities, you know, we're getting rashes, we're getting, you know, a lot of like, dryness around the eyes, which we mm-hmm.

You mentioned histamine reactions, very common. Um, chronically sick, you know, fatigue. These weird moods, unable to resolve moods, not able to transition between things [00:23:00] easily, you know, like mm-hmm. From playing thing to leaving the house, obviously normal to have a child be like, I don't wanna go. I don't want, you know.

But if it's 30 minutes in and you can't get them outta the house, like obviously 

Andrea Jones: you're breaking a sweat, then we probably should be. Yeah, a little, a little alarmed. 

Becca Chillcz: Jumping like my daughter who just, 

Andrea Jones: yeah, 

Becca Chillcz: I joke all the time. My husband and I are like, I don't understand. She, and I ask her, I'm like, Taylor, why are you jumping?

Because she'll just like randomly just jump in the kitchen. She's like, mom, I just like jumping. I'm like, okay. 

Speaker 4: Okay. 

Becca Chillcz: Whatever you wanna do to get your energy out. Yeah. But. What ultimately do we see going on in these cases? Like is there some level of leaky gut that then is leading to immune dysregulation and immune response neural inflammation?

Like what do we think is kind of root issues that are driving some of these behavioral issues that are starting to pop up? 

Andrea Jones: Yeah. Um, this is a really good question, and honestly, this was something that I didn't fully put [00:24:00] together until my oldest was diagnosed with pandas and we were working with a pediatric occupational therapist.

That really helped me to understand how her nervous system was impacting all of her autoimmune symptoms, and it was this like cascade. So that's kind of the, the context that I'm thinking from when I try to explain this. I do think that it's multiple things, but what we commonly see, and, and I would say this is true for, I hesitate to say all because I don't think it's quite all, but it is a very high percentage.

There's always some sort of bacterial dysbiosis, which is inflammation, right? And the research shows, unless I'm looking at the wrong research, but the research shows that when there's inflammation in the gut, there is inflammation in the brain. You cannot separate the two. And we cannot expect our children to behave normally, and I'm using quotation marks here, behave normally or behave optimally [00:25:00] when there's that level of inflammation going on.

For adults, this looks like anxiety, depression, mood disorders, right? For kids, it looks like bad behavior. Because they don't have, like, they don't have the ability to mask or they have not been trained to keep it in a container. So I personally believe it's the interplay between that infection response, that inflammatory response, that you can't have that without some level of, of dysregulated nervous system.

And so when I'm working on a case, um, nine times out of 10 when you know the parent's like, yeah, we're coming in for constipation and they've. They only poop once a week. Right. I'm always asking about mood, behavior, sleep, because they always have symptoms in that category too. It's just that as parents we kind of, um, we kind of normalize, right?

We kind of normalize it because they're our kid and we see them every day and we don't [00:26:00] know necessarily what's normal or not normal because we're raising them and we're a little bit desensitized to some of their behaviors. Does that make sense? 

Becca Chillcz: Let's talk about poop too, 'cause we totally forgot about like bowels and what can show up with kids that are maybe signs, you know, of some imbalances.

Constipation, obviously being one of them. I think of like Taylor, I would notice she erred more on the side of like pale stools and floating and um, so I knew that there was some. Maybe like a little bit of liver stress going on with her. My, my 4-year-old that I'm diagnosing, well, 

Liz Roman: maybe Ethan. It's fine.

He's on Digestive Bitter. We're on day two of digestive bitters and eating lemon. He is loving it. 

Andrea Jones: That's awesome. 

Becca Chillcz: Yeah. But what about poop? What about, 

Andrea Jones: what about poop? Poop is super important. And I know that we all agree with that and I sometimes clients get like bashful, you know, or like the kids will be like, they don't wanna talk about poop on the phone calls, but I'm like, totally normal.

It's okay. Um, but yeah, constipation is a [00:27:00] big one. Anything less than once a day is constipated, so we really should be going at least once a day. It should be easy, it should be soft informed. It should not be overly rous. Meaning like it should smell like poop, but you shouldn't be like, like hit with a pungent smell.

Right. Or like an overly sweet smell. Um, sometimes that's an indicator of dysbiosis. Um, kids that have like urgency, so an urging to poop where they like have to run to the bathroom, right. Or leaking stool where they're always having little stains in their underwear. And it's beyond just like. I would expect that with a four or 5-year-old.

'cause they're still kind of learning this whole hygiene thing and how to wipe Right. But beyond that, where it's like, no, they know how to wipe and we're still having some smears in the stool, itching in the bottom. That's a big one. Um, that's not always hygiene related. Sometimes it's related to candida or parasites that we wanna take a look at.[00:28:00] 

Um, discomfort when they're going to the bathroom, even if it's a normal stool and they're having normal daily stools, but they're uncomfortable, like they're working really hard even with like appropriate positioning. Right. I would say all of those would be concerning. Um. Then there's, you know, obviously like discoloration, like you were talking about, if it's always yellow or it's always really light green or it's always really pale, that tells us a lot about how other organs are functioning.

Not just the microbiome, but like the liver, the gallbladder, the stomach. Um, and so that's part of the reason why we try to be as detailed as possible in those intakes and also follow up assessments. And why I am, you know, I can be very, like, I really, really need you to fill out the poop form. Please fill out the poop form, because it tells me a lot.

And so, and it tells me a lot about what other things we should be looking at besides just, are they pooping every day? You know, that's foundational, but [00:29:00] you know, there's a lot more that we could explore with that too. What would 

Liz Roman: you say to the parent who's being told just to take MiraLax, give your child MiraLax because they're constipated in their tube.

Andrea Jones: You had to come in with that question, didn't you? What do you think about it, Liz? Um, no. 

Liz Roman: You're toxic. It is toxic to the body. Do not give it to your child. Run away from the pediatrician. 

Andrea Jones: Okay? So, yes, that, um, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna share with you some of my hospital experience with MiraLax. I have never.

Seen that to ever be effective long term for a kid. Like the number of kids that we would see come in, you know, twice a year, three times a year for a bowel clean out, which is awful in the hospital by the way, it's like a tube down the nose. You're pumping them full of fluid and MiraLax and it's just poop everywhere for like days to clean them out.

It's a horrible experience and it's not good for you. Like the ingredients that are in there, they're not actually resolving the problem. Very, very occasionally have I seen that be effective [00:30:00] as like a one time thing to really clean things out. And now we need to be 10 times more aggressive in every other area so that we don't ever have to do that again.

Like very occasionally. Will that be like a very last resort for people? Um, I am not a fan. Um, I, like I said, in the hospital we would use it as like, wow, this kid has not pooped in three weeks and we need to like. Get things moving. Um, but as a treatment plan, it, it's not actually a treatment plan. It's not resolving anything.

It's not addressing all of the reasons why somebody is not modal, like not moving their, their bowels. Um, and you know, unfortunately it just, it takes longer. For us to do the assessment, then physicians are able to provide in the office because insurance doesn't allow for more than a 15 or 20 minute appointment.

And just on that assessment alone, we're spending 10 or 15 minutes on just that, you know, that [00:31:00] portion of trying to figure out how do we assess motility. Um, yeah, I'm not a fan. Personally, professionally, I don't, you know, the research is out on that one. I think we should all be on the same page that that is not benefiting our kids at this point.

Liz Roman: Yeah, it's really frustrating. If you look at all of the lawsuits, the FDA regulations, and again, FDA, you know. It's hit or miss, but we believe from them. But it's very clear in the warnings that this is not intended for the use under 17 for children. And maybe you saw this in the hospital as well, there's a lot of neuropsych, neuropsych, psychiatric, oh my gosh, why am I struggling with that word?

Neuropsych, psychiatric re, behavioral issues. Then what's happening? Prescription, right? So now we've. Told parents, bandaid, bandaid, bandaid, bandaid. And you're never getting to the root cause. And we also know that for some individuals, I mean, I dealt with the extreme abdominal pain, cramping, and [00:32:00] urgency.

Like I had many moments where I felt like I wasn't going to make it to the bathroom when I was taking ax. And now I was older in my teen years. But imagine a small child. What's gonna, I can only put myself in those shoes and remember, you know how I felt as a little girl, right? I'm gonna withhold. And so now I've put toxic ingredients into my child that are creating other symptoms, and I'm creating either reliancy or worsening constipation because they're withholding and then they're embarrassed and they're in pain.

Why would we ever recommend this to children? It, it's beyond me. There's a great, uh, group called Parents Against MiraLax. I have them cited in our magnesium cleanse or clean out that we have for all ages and stages of life. So I have that on the Poop Queen account. We have, you know, that in our resources and I would much rather use magnesium for my child, but more importantly address the root cause.

And we understand that in the pediatrician's office, they don't have time necessarily to talk all about these things. [00:33:00] I agree with what you said. Let's get on the same page. Let's understand this is not good for our children, and let's ask more questions so that we can actually help them, because again, long term, it's not setting them up for success.

Andrea Jones: No. Yeah, it doesn't resolve anything long term. I, I literally, I cannot think of a single client patient that I've ever worked with that's used it, that said, yeah, that totally fixed all of my GI problems and 

Liz Roman: didn't zero, 

Andrea Jones: zero. Yeah. And most of the time, like you said, it creates the other issues of you're training them to hold, like do stool holding, which for kids is, you know, it creates this cyclical pattern that's really hard to get them out of.

Um, and so, yeah, it's just, it, it creates so many problems. I. I don't think we could even, yeah, accurately list all of them. It's just not a good, not a good situation. 

Becca Chillcz: So in these cases, where do you, where do you recommend parents begin? And also let's what we talked about wanting this podcast to be around, like talk about from a parent's [00:34:00] perspective too, because I think.

Kids feed off your energy like, and they, they are so much more in tune with what you do than you even realize. Like, yeah, Taylor is now using her toy laptop to constantly order clothes, which I have realized maybe I have a problem and.

Speaker 4: That's amazing. Oh my gosh. Oh gosh. I 

Liz Roman: need pictures and video evidence of this 

Speaker 4: honey proof 

Becca Chillcz: pretend Amazon guy and just kept coming to the doorbell and Taylor's like, oh my God, there's so many packages. And she was like, hold on, I need to order more clothes again. And I was like, oh my God, baby. That's 

Andrea Jones: amazing.

Okay, but if that is the worst thing she takes away from being parented by you, I think you're still doing a pretty good job. That's amazing. 

Becca Chillcz: Anyways, um. So even as a parent it can be hard not to kind of freak out a little bit and like for sure be worried about your kid and then constantly analyzing their poop and constantly [00:35:00] analyzing what they're eating and like, you know, being hovering over that child and what's going on.

And so what I would, I guess think would be very helpful. For people listening is like, okay, as a pediatric practitioner, like where do you typically begin with these soft signs in these cases? And then mm-hmm. From a parent's perspective, like how can they best support the situation without making the situation worse?

Andrea Jones: Yeah. I think I'm actually gonna start in the reverse order because it's really hard. To know where to start when you're anxious about it. And part of the reason parents are anxious is because they haven't been supported right by their practitioner or they're not getting the resources that they need.

That creates a lot of internal anxiety. Um, and so then of course you're showing up where you're hyper assessing their poops. You're like, okay, we gotta go to the bathroom every 30 minutes now to make sure you're not con like we overcompensate. Right? And that's true for all of us. Um, very rarely do I work with [00:36:00] a parent that like.

Like just shuts off and dissociates from the situation is like, I'm just gonna pretend this isn't happening. I don't know. And I've never worked with a parent that's like that. It's more the opposite end where there's a lot of anxiety around it because. They are distressed because they know, like something in them knows that this is not healthy, right?

This isn't, this isn't healthy. And now my kid's struggling because of it. Um, so the first thing I would say is make sure that you're working with somebody that is listening to you because that anxiety is a clue that you're not likely getting the support that you actually. Need in this case, um, and that you being regulated will help yourself to really show up for your kid and make sure that you're able to be as objective as humanly possible in that situation.

Um, the second thing I would say is, you know, when we're looking at motility, a lot of the times there are bacterial overgrowths that are slowing down that motility. So we [00:37:00] wanna make sure that we're addressing that, but that the overgrowths themselves are like. Step three or step four in an already dysfunctional process.

Like that's never the first thing. Right? At least in my experience, I, I think it's, I think you would agree with that. Um, almost always it's coming from the stomach where they're not either, either not chewing their food thoroughly, they're in a stressed state when they're eating, like most adults are. You know, we're like learn, trying to teach a kid how to chew 20 times.

Is that is a goal that I have in my practice. I have not yet achieved it, but at some point, you know, like we training them not to be like doing other things while they're eating, actually sit, pay attention to their body, um, making sure they have adequate stomach acid that we're not dealing with. Things like h pylori.

Right. Um. But almost all of that constipation starts in the upper digestion with all of those cues that should trigger motility. And they're not. Um, so there's that, [00:38:00] there's gallbladder issues where it's just a little bit sluggish, you know, toxic overload that the foods that we're eating, not eating enough fat, um, to stimulate the gallbladder is a big one.

Um. Some kids are just very averse to eating high fat foods, and so we have to kind of work our way around that. But most of the time I try to start with nutrition that gets things moving even before we start that eradication phase because I don't want them to be killing things off when they're not able to move it out.

Um, and so that's usually one of the first things that I will start with is what are some very gentle, easy, practical things we can add in. That we'll get things moving like tomorrow, you know? Um, and then, you know, once we get some good motility happening, we'll start to build in, you know, some eradication agents based off of what we see on their stool testing.

Um, but we wanna make sure that all of those supports are in place. You know, we can't just, I know some practitioners that are [00:39:00] like very heavy on the killers and that's great, and sometimes that's necessary. But if we're not supporting the reason why that happened in the first place, we're just gonna end up right back.

At the beginning. So 

Becca Chillcz: I think especially with kids, it has to and with adults, that's how we approach it too. But like with kids, it's more soothing and trying to get things moving and making sure the systems are in a good spot because. They're gonna be probably a lot more sensitive too in some of these cases too, when you bring in bacterial killers and 

Speaker 4: mm-hmm.

Becca Chillcz: That further than driving constipation to come back in a lot of cases. And so, yeah, we obviously wholeheartedly agree. Um, and unfortunately a lot of, a lot of people out there, like I, I've even talked to some people that have their kids on like wormwood and all of the, you know, black walnut and all of these things that are just really aggressive and mm-hmm.

It's like. Who, who told you to do this? Like, it's, it's, you're, you're dealing with a kid here. Um, and so 

Liz Roman: I think that's a good point to bring up because there's [00:40:00] some very large social media accounts, um, that I follow and actually just did that celery juice. Cleanse, let's air quote here just to see like, does it work in terms of liver flukes, but it's all about detox and zeolite and parasite cleanses and heavy metal cleansing and all these things, and I just think it's really scary because if a child who, while children are resilient, but if you take a child who is nutrient deficient in many of the things that we need for our enzymatic functions to process, you know, process smoothly in the body.

Zinc, B12, vitamin C, right? All of these things that are really important, again for the immune system as well as proper digestion, and you just start killing things off. You're also depleting them more, right? Of these nutrients, and so I would just caution parents out there. I get it. It's shiny opposite syndrome, or you're grasping at straws or you're seeing testimonials that this worked well for me in one of the accounts.

She has great testimonials and she has great [00:41:00] testimonial of her child. I just don't think that's the first line of. Where I'm going. I am also the person who doesn't believe in muscle testing, and I like to see data that's. Quantitative. It's repeatable, it's scientific. I don't want just some random product going into my child's body.

Andrea Jones: Yeah. 

Liz Roman: I don't know is necessarily warranted. So just for people out there, we understand there's so much information on the internet and you, heck you can chat, GPT, all this stuff. I wouldn't do that because again, like we're talking about here, what you mentioned earlier, which we should circle back to, is.

The mother's microbiome and her pregnancy. And not only that, the grandmother's microbiome and her pregnancy and her nervous system. 'cause we passed this in two generations and the children get a hundred percent of the mom's mitochondria. So if we don't address the foundational cellular health issues will forever just continue to chase the bacteria because your terrain hasn't been supported.

So I just 

Speaker 4: exactly. [00:42:00] 

Liz Roman: I, I can't with people just throwing things at the wall for, you know, kiddos and whatnot. But let's shift, as we talked about in the beginning, to talking to parents who are dealing with this. What are things that you wish that you knew? Let's talk everything from your daily habits, routines, creating boundaries, you know, putting space in, talking to your spouse and getting them on board.

And then the biggest thing that comes to my mind is finding a community. Um, I have a very, uh. Close person in my life that is going through some really challenging times with their son who is under the age of 10, and I have just encouraged them so, so much to a seek alternative care. B, understand there's more than medications 'cause they're just compiling medications on medications.

C, find a community 'cause they feel so alone and so isolated. And actually in that case is that if you don't know where to turn, turn to foster parent communities because they've built and seen a lot of these things. So to hear from your side [00:43:00] what you would say to those parents going through this process, just to remind them that they matter too and that again, their nervous system and their needs still matter in this process.

Andrea Jones: Absolutely. Well, I think you nailed it and I think you know, our case was definitely more on the extreme end. My daughter was diagnosed with pandas, so for those of you that don't know, that's pediatric autoimmune, neuropsychiatric, neuropsych. See, I can't say they're neuropsychiatric disorder associated with strep.

So she got a strep infection. Took care of the infection. And that led to essentially autoimmune encephalitis. And so lost all of her executive function, all of it within three days. And, um, so the amount of stress that I was under, like, it's even hard for me to like remember and imagine that sometimes. So keep in mind as you're listening that I'm talking about everyone in between that space.

Just like normal neurotypical parenting, every single [00:44:00] one of us have to have the non-negotiables. Right? Which is, I cannot, if, if I am not stable, if I don't have like any reserve in me, I'm not gonna be able to get my kid to the finish line. I didn't really like, that didn't really click for me until about three years in when I finally was able to access like, respite care for myself, which was like somebody would come over and hang out with her so I could actually like get outta the house.

'cause she had a ton of anxiety about me leaving. Um, and so at that time, you know, I was, uh, making sure that I was getting good sleep. Because that was one of the things I could control. She slept really well, so I'm, I'm gonna make sure that I'm getting really good sleep at night. That is, that should be a non-negotiable.

And if that is an issue with your partner, that should be a priority to work that out. Meaning like, if you need to have your spouse on board, do whatever you have to do to get your spouse on board, even if that means therapy. Okay. I know [00:45:00] that's tough love, but it's, you know, that was never an issue with my husband, but I know a lot of people.

That can be an issue. So make sure that you're getting the support you need for that. Simple things like drinking water, making sure that when you're eating, you're eating in a non-stressed state. Um, so for me, making sure that I had breakfast within an hour of eating, even if it wasn't like. What I would consider now, like the most nourishing or fulfilling, it was still somewhat stabilizing.

So protein, fat and maybe some, you know, some very low glycemic carbs that like would stabilize me for the amount of stress that I had to deal with during the day. Um. Getting outside and walking. It does not have to be a 30 minute walk. It can be a five minute walk. It can be a 10 minute walk. Anything to get your blood moving and get yourself out of that, um, that, uh, fight or flight state that sometimes we're in when we're dealing with a really complex issue.

Or even just, I mean, just raising kids. [00:46:00] Like, let's be honest, raising kids is hard regardless of the diagnosis. Those were my non-negotiables. Um, and then of course, you know, there were added layers of things that we needed. Like I was in therapy at the time. I was seeing a counselor twice a month. Um, and that was really stabilizing for me because what we were dealing with, like, we have no timeline, like there's no end date to this.

We don't know. What, you know, when she'll get better, if she'll get better, what that's gonna look like, how many years it's gonna take. Um, and so I, there was a lot that I had to work through in regards to that. And so I think for those of you listening, don't minimize. Like I was definitely in the mindset at the beginning of once she's better, I will.

Take care of myself. Once she's better, then I'll make sure to prioritize me. And that's a very common mom thing to do. Like I don't think it's unique to my circumstances. I think it's just the mom thing that we do. That [00:47:00] script did eventually flip to, she's only going to get. Good as I like, she's only going to get as healed as I can help her.

Right? And so if I'm not okay, how, how able am I going to be to actually get her to a better place? Um, so for me that those were like the foundational things, getting a good night of sleep, whatever you need to do to make that happen, um, making sure you're getting. Some sort of, you know, nutrients throughout the day and not just living off of caffeine and sugar, you know, which is very easy to do when we're stressed.

So those are like some of the foundational things. And then for me, I really had to, this was like, oh, it like. Crucified a part of me, I think of this very independent. I don't need anyone part of me, um, which was that I eventually did have to invite a lot of people in to help in other practical ways. Um, and that ended up being really transformative for me once I allowed.

That to happen in my life, uh, [00:48:00] where I allowed myself to build community and really allowed people to see like the mess of our life and the hard that had happened and just let them come in and support us in whatever way they were willing to. Um, that is eventually, you know, that's kind of what carried me through the last couple of years of her illness until she really turned some really big corners.

Liz Roman: It's, where is she now? I'm just, you know, for hope. Right. Where is she now compared to where she was? And obviously you said there's no timeline. It's so different for everyone. Mm-hmm. 

Andrea Jones: But 

Liz Roman: from what I understand, she's in a much better place. You're in a much better place. Yeah. It just took a lot of work.

Lot 

Andrea Jones: the layers 

Liz Roman: go down to speed up and feel, you know, a lot of times we'll hear from parents, like, I feel like we're backtracking, but it's actually just, again, slowing down. Just beat up, pivoting. Yeah. And. 

Andrea Jones: We, she is, um, she's doing really, really well. I mean, to think of this kid that used to rage [00:49:00] for five hours a day, that like now she's, most days she's very happy, very like present, very engaged with the family.

There's so much that we can do now that we just absolutely could not do for years. Um, and you know, things like noise sensitivity is a lot better. Um, her executive function skills are. Like almost all back, not a hundred percent, but she has regained almost all of her executive function, um, her immune system.

This is the biggest one. I know. I shared this on a team call a while ago. Like, she can get fevers now without any neurological symptoms. Um, she has normal illnesses. Those to me, you know, her body's not attacking her brain anymore, and that alone is, you know, worth everything that we've invested in her getting better.

There's still some areas that we're working on, you know, in terms of, of healing. But this last year we really kind of took a year off of pushing for therapies and different things and really just like let her [00:50:00] body settle and stabilize more because I needed that. Like I needed to just take a break and let things settle where they were and kind of reassess and regroup.

Um, because it's hard. It's, you know, it's been a seven year journey. This was not. You know, it wasn't a month, it wasn't three months, it wasn't two years like I thought it was. And you know, to your point about, uh, backtracking her the two times that she really like what I would've called a regression, um, actually ended up being like a slingshot.

As soon as she got through that, it was like a very deep, deep healing that was happening that I could not see. I really had to rely on her practitioner to help me get through that because I was like, I feel like we're back in hell, so you're gonna have to help me not feel crazy about this. And sure enough, she came out of the other side with like 10 symptoms gone and um, so I would just, you know, I would encourage you.

[00:51:00] You know, that rest is an essential part of the process too, and that you cannot outpace your child's healing. And so for me, you know, taking those necessary breaks even, um, was very much a part of the process. 

Becca Chillcz: Gosh, it's so, I love that of you cannot outpace the healing. It's such a good reminder. 'cause I think inherently we'd wanna control things.

Um, absolutely. And especially when it comes to our kids. Like we want the best for them. Our kids will go at the pace that their body allow them, allows them to go to, and we just need to be the best possible support and give them the best possible support, which also our team to wrap this up, um, works with cases.

Andrea, herself is our pediatric practitioner, and she has done amazing work with so many kiddos. And it's, I, I have to say it is, even though I'm not directly working with them, like hearing the kids' stories, is. So rewarding and gratifying. Um, it's the best. 

Andrea Jones: Yeah, I agree. It's the [00:52:00] best. 

Becca Chillcz: Like just, I love, I love people, but kids are better.

Um, I'm sorry. They just are. Uh, and 

Liz Roman: well, 

Andrea Jones: we're 

Liz Roman: generation, right? 

Becca Chillcz: Yes. Mm-hmm. And I mean, like, I think of my kids, you know, and I, I think this is why I've always, ever since having kids, like I struggle watching any type of movie that includes. Children being hurt or, you know, killed or anything like that. I just can't watch it.

I can't, and Nick's always like, it's fiction. I'm like, it is not, it is in my head very real. Um, yeah. And 

Andrea Jones: yeah, 

Becca Chillcz: absolutely. Seriously, I love, I love seeing the kids get better and return back to their normal, vibrant self that they are meant to be. So. If you want to get in contact with us and learn more about how Andrea works with children and families, um, link is in the show notes.

You can set up a call to talk about our Happy Tummies program and, and how many. Amazing cases have been helped in that program. So thank you so much for sharing your own story and [00:53:00] 

Andrea Jones: absolutely 

Becca Chillcz: such good insight for parents and families that are maybe going through things. Um, you are not alone. There's so much more awareness now than there used to be, which is a thing.

Um, but you gotta find the right people. You gotta find the right people to help and, and guide you in the right direction. And. Know that things can resolve and kids are so resilient, so much more resilient than adults, what I find, um, and their bodies are meant to be healthy. So, 

Andrea Jones: absolutely. 

Becca Chillcz: Thank you so much.

Andrea Jones: Well, thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. 

Becca Chillcz: Yeah, of course. And yeah, go, go, uh, go follow her. Abundant Wellness with Andrea. Right. Yes, on. Um, she is, we tag her all the time on our Instagrams, and you can find her on our website fit mom.co. Uh, and yeah, if you feel like your kiddo needs help and you don't know where to go, she is your [00:54:00] girl.